In article <4impbd$kla@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, bb7203926@gamma.ntu.ac.sg 
(Ibnu Ar Radi) writes:

Did Jesus realy die on the cross ?

Mr Jochen Katz had brought this subject up, and well he received quite a 
number of replies.

But did Jesus really die on the cross?

Listed below are the different viewpoints adopted by different individuals
/groups as regards how Jesus' mission ended ?


1. Jesus was killed on the cross - Christians, Jews

2. Jesus was not killed on the cross, but died later - Qadianis, 
   Mohd Assad, the writers of "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail"

3. Jesus was not even brought to the cross. He was taken up into
   heaven and someone else was put on the cross (The Substitution Theory)
   - Majority of Muslims (including Ahmad Shafaat and Maulana Daryabadi),
     the Basilidians and the Carpocratians (early Christian sects - 2nd 
     Century)

4. Jesus fainted on the cross, but didn't die on it (The Swoon Theory)
   - A. Deedat, Qadianis, "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail"'s writers,
     Dr Schonfield

5. Jesus was not taken up into heaven - only elevated in status, not 
   direction ("raf'a") - Qadianis, Prof Mahmud Syaltut, Imam Fakhruddin Razi,
   Mohd Assad

6. Jesus Swooned and later ascended to heaven - A. Deedat


A few things that a Muslim should know:-

	Muslim should realise that as far as Islam is concerned, the 
	details of Jesus' mission is Not part of the curriculum of his faith.

	What is part of a Muslim's sphere of his faith is the Message that
	Jesus, as well as other apostles brought.

	The Quran, being the criterion to judge all the previous revelations,
	also sets to correct charges levelled at God's various messengers
	throughout history.

	With regards to what happened at the end of Jesus' ministry, the 
	Quran is very categorical (ie certain, without any doubt)
	Though it seemed that his enemies had slain him, in actuality they
	hadn't! That those in disagreement with regards to this have no 
	secure knowledge, but only conjecture!
	In other words, ALL of us who take different stances/opinions
	regarding how Jesus' ministry ended can only guess - this includes
	both the Christian divines and Muslim commentators. It would thus 
	be only wise for us to simply contend that Jesus did not die, full
	stop. To elaborate further than what the Quran stages is to enter 
	the grey realm of hypothesis.

	Christendom as a whole TODAY speaks with one voice in at least this
	one issue "Yes he WAS killed" they say.
	In its early days though, there were controversies and disagreement 
	amongst them as to what really happened - the Basilidians and the 
	Carpocratians are example of groups which oppose the idea that the
	Christ was killed. Another theory states that it was Jesus' twin
	brother who was slain, while he escaped.

	Muslims who enter debate as to "what really happened" are also
	merely giving their opinions.

	In the course of history, no less than 14 candidates were forwarded
	by our scholars who adopt the Substitution Theory - these substitutes
	include Judas Iscariot and Simon of Cyrene.

	Others, trying to marry the Quranic statement with NT accounts follow
	the Swoon Theory.


Conclusion :

None of Jesus' disciples were recorded as being present during the Cruxifiction
as eye-witness to this event. 
H Cohn, P Winter and Prof S G F Brandon have alleged that a number of vital
historical mistakes were made by the NT writers.
We therefore left to guess as to whether events happened as they are reported
in the NT.

Muslim scholars who interpreted the Quran 4:157 should be willing to admit
that their stances are merely their hypothesis, and that no one should be
forced to accept these opinions as "Quranic Truths" or the "only correct
interpretation".

Whilst A. Deedat would acknowledge that his stance is but a conjecture, some
of his avid 'disciples' take his Swoon Theory as the only true exposition
of the Quran 4:157. They thus make it difficult for other Muslims (many of
whom adopt the Substitution Theory) and make it easy for skeptics to come
around saying -
		"You Muslims are not sure as to what really happened!"

We respectfully suggest that the onus is NOT on Muslims to paint the real 
scenario. The initiative rather lies with the Christians to prove that 
Jesus was killed and he later rose from the dead, as their very SALVATION
depends on a murdered and arisen Christ.

Ask this writer his opinion and I will quote what Gary Miller said - which 
effect emcompass ALL the differing opinions:

	"JESUS WAS A MAN WHO WAS REPORTED DEAD -
	BUT WHO WAS SEEN ALIVE A FEW DAYS LATER"


wassalam

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